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Hi Karen ...... Praise to Jesus Christ in the highest

Karen the 2012 tag is for those non christians looking for end of the world prophecy at UTUBE other than Christian prophecy. Although I can see how many might misunderstand it as date setting.

Having said that I think it would be prudent of me to clarify my position on rapture since we have different positions.

Before I post a copy of my page on the subject let me state very seriously that rapture is not an issue that should divide the church. It is a doctrinal tool to assist believers into growing in God's grace and maturity. Error or the debate about what is error doctrinally speaking will help humble and sincere Christians grow. Here is my postion on Rapture, it is at the First Sickle of Revelation.

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RAPTURE - pretrib prewrath mid or post

Is Jesus' Coming Pre-tribulation, Mid, or post tribulation Rapture?

The timing of the rapture, the truth concerning Rapture, the main debates about Rapture's timing.

Basic introductory information for non-believers or new believers reading.

This event called "Rapture" has to do with the promise of being changed and then caught up supernaturally in the skies with the Lord just before Jesus pours out his wrath on those that have rejected him and accepted the false messiah. This false messiah or false Christ is also called the Antichrist, or the beast according to scripture. The main focus of the document is the debate that surrounds the timing of this event called Rapture. Please understand that this particular document is not entry-level instruction for this subject. It's written to those who already have a good basic understanding of this event and the debate that surrounds it. Brothers and sisters love one another as you debate or discuss this subject.

Does the Rapture of the Church occur Pre, Mid, or post Tribulation.

Seasoned Christian - Introduction

Before we focus in on the main commentary of this subject I wish to address a few quick but very important points. Let's begin with a familiar scripture, it is Mark 13:32.

Mark 13:32

"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Lets now take a look at another scripture that's not quite as familiar but it helps give proper balance to the scripture you just read above. This next scripture is 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2. for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

The obvious points from these two scriptures are clear,

* No one knows the exact day or hour.

* Jesus comes as a thief to non-believers but for believers that day does not surprise us, for we are not of the darkness.

* Jesus wants his children to know the general season of his coming.

* The general signs of Jesus' coming are given by Jesus himself in Matthew chapter 24 as well as the other Gospels. Jesus focused very specifically on one sign in particular where he referred to the prophet Daniel. Jesus said, "when you see what was spoken by the Prophet Daniel concerning the abomination that makes desolate then let the reader understand." The warning that follows that sign is very clear, but you can read Matthew 24 for yourself.

Main Commentary

Let's take a deeper look at this mystery from scripture. Holy Spirit in the mighty name of Jesus Christ I ask for your Wisdom and for your wisdom and understanding to be given to each of your children who are called of you to understand this difficult subject.

Read carefully and prayerfully.

1 Cor 15:51-57

51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Commentary note on: 1 Cor 15: 51-52

In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection of believers here; otherwise he would not have used the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age. With those things in mind lets look at God's Word some more.

Revelation 10:5-7

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be no more delay 7 But in the days of the trump of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Commentary on Rev 10:7

Now here in Revelation 10 verse 7 we see the Word "Mystery" and the promise that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet the Mystery of God would be fulfilled. We know the 7th angel in Revelation is the same one who blows the 7th trump. Here in Revelation 10:7 is only the promise, the angel is not sounding it here. Now lets look further into the Word of God.

Revelation 11:15-18

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give you thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which is, and was, and are to come; because you have taken to thee your great power, and has begun to reign. 18 And the nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and that you should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Now in the scripture above we have the 7th Angel sounding his trumpet. Notice that it says in verse 18 "your wrath has come" speaking of God's wrath and also "the time of the dead that they should be judged." We know these are believers because it says the servants, the prophets and the saints. Also rewards are spoken about. You only give rewards to children in the kingdom. This is the resurrection Paul is talking about in 1st Corinthians. It occurs at the blowing of the Last trump, which is blown by the 7th angel. We also know these are believers in Jesus because the white thrown judgment resurrection for the rest of the dead does not occur until Revelation 20.

One additional note on God's wrath, notice from Revelation 11:15-18 above that until this scripture God's wrath has not yet come. The time that it has come is announced in this scripture. All events that have occurred before this scripture are judgments and tribulations from God, but it is not his wrath. Let us continue with this scripture below.

Revelation 14:13-20

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, (Insert: Rapture starts here) Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

(Insert: God's Wrath starts here after church is removed) 17 and another angel came out of the temple, which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

First sickle is the Rapture of Christian believers the 2nd sickle is God's wrath

Now this is where Rapture actually takes place, Rev 14:14-16 is the Rapture. This is the 1st sickle where Jesus comes and takes his Church out of the world and out of his impending wrath. Notice the word Harvest is used, Jesus also uses the word Harvest when explaining the tares and the wheat in Matthew. Now the next sickle (2nd Sickle) starts in 14:17-20, this is a wrath sickle. The 1st sickle is a Harvest sickle (Rapture). Be sure not to confuse these two sickles. Once again the 1st sickle in Revelation 14:14-16 is the Rapture. The second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 is a wrath sickle.

The Bowl judgments begin right after this second sickle in chapter 14:17-20. As Jesus promised and Apostle Paul spoke, Jesus delivers us out of his wrath. Exactly as Paul was instructed and wrote to us by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I would like to point out one more thing to all reading, Jesus said in Mark Chapter 13 that the church age generation shall not pass away until all these things take place. What things? All the things he spoke of in Chapter 13. In Mark 13:37 Jesus also said this. "And what I say to you I say to all: Watch." Jesus said for ALL to WATCH. He was speaking to his disciples and to us, telling us to watch for what? Everything he spoke that would happen in Mark Chapter 13.

Jesus also talks about the tares (nonbelievers) and the wheat (believers). Jesus makes it clear they grow together until his coming. Jesus' coming and rapture are in fact the same event. Here are a couple of those scriptures.

Matthew 13:29

But he said, no lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, You gather together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Commentary on Matthew 13:29

Notice Jesus says to the reapers to gather first the tares (nonbelievers) and bind them into bundles to be burned. Jesus does not command them to be burned at that very moment but rather be bound and gathered first for a future time that he will destroy them. This binding and separation will occur during the time of the Antichrist. Those who take the buying and selling mark of the antichrist will be bound and separated, to be burned after the church has been raptured.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

First, please note that in both passages, a trumpet sounds before the dead are raised to life.

Now although this may seem quite simple, it is very important to observe this very simple commonality, because we're about to compare these two passages to another passage that contains Christ's own description of His Second Coming. Here it is:

Matthew 24:30

"Then the Sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming of the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So in Christ's own words, at His Second Coming a "great trumpet" will be sounded, after which His elect will be gathered together, "from one end of heaven to the other".

This is exactly the same event that is described in the first two passages. In all three, a trumpet is sounded, and in all three, the 'elect', or believers, both dead and alive, are gathered to Christ.

To my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, I do understand there are many arguments supporting pre-tribulation rapture teaching. Revelation 3:10 is one of them: KEEP US FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL. Rather than spend a lot of time go to the original Greek and find the correct usage for the word KEEP as used in this scripture. You will find that this word has more than one usage. One is physical the other is spiritual. The article usage in Revelation 3:10 is very specific.

Also Jesus spoke of tribulation as series of tribulations and events, (More than one) Example he said in Matthew 24, after that tribulation. In another passage he spoke of the Great Tribulation as a different event. This great tribulation Jesus connected to the future desolation of a third rebuilt Jewish Temple.

The Wrath of God, the seals and trumps judgments are not the same event, they each have different purposes. The seals and trumps are judgments because of sin, but they are given as a warning to repent.

God uses serious judgments to try to bring a person or nation to repentance. Example, Moses said by command of the Lord. "Let my people go." The people were still under Pharaoh's control, but God began pouring out His judgments, increasing them each time if Pharaoh refused God's command through Moses. God never poured out his full wrath on Egypt during this time. They were judgments with punishments, but they were not the full wrath of God.

The same is true for the book of Revelation, the 7 seals and seven trumps, and the 7 thunders that are sealed up are serious extreme judgments. They are given to punish and separate the wheat from the chaff. But it is not the wrath of God.

The wrath of God is his anger poured out to destroy the nations that reject him. This begins with the 1st bowl judgment. At this time, the time of God's bowls judgments God is NOT trying to call anyone to repentance, the door is shut. The only purpose for the bowl judgments is for justice and for the destruction of nations and all persons who worshiped, or took the mark of the Antichrist.

Question: When Paul in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 speaks of a rebellion and a falling away what do you think will cause this rebellion in the first place. In the Gospel there is a scripture, which talks about those who determine that the Master is delayed in coming. Make yourself a list of every reason you can possibly think of that could cause some Christians to fall away and rebel. Then ask yourself honestly if an erred teaching of pre-tribulation rapture could cause some to fall away. Then more importantly ask the Lord the same question. Last but not least, when the Lord delivered Israel out of Egypt what trumpet did they exodus? Was it not the seventh after great hardship and testing? When Israel left Egypt, did they not leave in great haste as the Lord commanded Moses it should be done? The Lord has not changed. Is it not written that Judgment begins in the House of God? So be the truth, in the name and the blood of Jesus the Lord.